A Thorn in Theology
TW: a deep dive follows, inquiring if Jesus (or at least words put in his mouth by others) spoke false prophecy.
So as to ensure that scripture is not taken out of context, let us start with the entire chapter in which Mark 13:30 lay. I offer the premise that this verse is summarized as “some of you will live to see this happen”
In Mark 13:1–5, Jesus, among disciples, alludes to much destruction, hinting of the temple’s demise. He is asked when it will happen, what signs will we see, to which Jesus replies subsequently to expect:
(Mark 13:5–24) wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, persecution, families torn apart, flight to the mountains, a horrible time for pregnant woman, and false prophets arising. From the perspective of a person living proximate to AD 70 Judea, these events happened already, following another sack of Jerusalem and its temple again destroyed. Jesus would have been seen to have predicted the future, thus subsequent event(s) he describes would be looming.
In following verses, Jesus describes upcoming supernatural events following the ‘tribulation’ (in some translations) or suffering (in others). He describes a darkened sun and moon, stars falling, planets shaken: the climax being the Son of man coming in the clouds with glory and power, angels gathering his elect from everywhere (Mark 13: 24–27).
Subsequently, in the Fig Tree Parable, Jesus re-addresses his audience speaking to them, just as ‘you’ can tell the change of seasons with a fig leaf, so ‘you’ can tell things to come with signs. (Mark 13:28–29).
One of the most controversial verses in the Bible is Mark 13:30: “I assure you that this generation won’t pass away until all these things happen.”
The verses leading up to v. 30 describe an end of the world scenario, which Jesus asserted would happen in the lifetime of his disciples. He admits he cannot pinpoint a date, for only God knows (Mark 13:31). All of Jesus’ disciples died, and one can argue that a dramatic return from heaven, where angels gather the faithful from all corners, has not happened (yet) either. For many, this passage of Mark is meant to be end times, but yet to happen, which, save for verse 30, tend to harmonize.
For verse 30 to be true, either:
1) All of the signs and wonders came true during his disciples lifetime. Mark 13 begins with him being surrounded by them, and there is nothing in subsequent verses to suggest he was ‘speaking to’ anyone else but his disciples.
2) Or Jesus is speaking of some generation, far, far in the future: maybe us; some 2000 or more years later. This future generation will be the ones who will see such wonders as the dramatic return, stars falling, and so on. Of course this implies that those around him will have long past of natural causes at least, before these signs and wonders occur.
Defending the first point, some theologians would assert that Jesus was referring to his resurrection, a return from death in power and glory, which spiritually unites believers. It is difficult to infer this from the passage, particularly since he is much more detailed and specific in other passages where he predicts his resurrection: ( Mark 9:31, 10:33–34). Applying these verses to Mark 13:30 are “out of context.”
Suppose we assume that all prophecy was fulfilled by interpreting scripture as such; it then forces the need to make room for a “third coming” following Jesus ascension into heaven at the end of his earthly, physically in-present ministry. This would indicate that indeed, both sun and moon darkened, stars fell, planets shook during the lifetime of his listeners. Certainly eclipses happened, as earthquakes, as did New Moons (generally every month). Stars falling, if meteorites, were observed, then and now. These events, even if interpreted as celestial phenomenon, can be interpreted as eventually coming true. It is assumed by some that this return has also passed.
We see multiple bible verses of Jesus departing earth to heaven, including Mark 16:19. However, Mark 13:26 describes a triumphant return from heaven, and heavily implies it being witnessed, or something witness-able. The gospels describe of Jesus Ascencion into heaven, but this is not to be confused with his return, as Mark 13:26 indicates.
In none of the gospels is recorded his resurrection directly witnessed. Instead we are told of an empty tomb, Christ appearing to but a select few, albeit not Judea as a whole, nor Jerusalem. His return from the resurrection, if from Heaven, went unwitnessed and recorded; instead appearances were to his associates on earth. Some will argue that the return was also invisible, much like the kingdom, as will soon follow.
For this reason, Marks description of return on the clouds verse is not consistent with what other verses describe the events of the resurrection in manner. Instead, most theologians settle with that the kingdom did indeed return: but invisible. The Kingdom is not here in terms of new buildings, removal of corrupt leaders, replacing them with saintly individuals and so on: it is rather said by some to have arrived, but invisible: in persons hearts, souls, and minds. If this premise is true, then this invisible kingdom has spread, but later fractured into countless denominations. All Christians pledge fealty to the same ruler, but beyond that, differences in practices , beliefs, ideas of salvation testify against there being a united spiritual kingdom. This is of almost certainty to happen over time, when the kingdom cannot be seen, heard, touched, tasted or smelled: it exists in a place beyond the approach of reason or study. The fact that there are literally tens of thousands of Christian denominations testifies that the kingdom is united only in name. Celsus noted this in the 2nd century ce, to which the fragmentation now would even shock him, some 1800 years later.
Regarding the second point, supposing that some, if not all of the prophecies in Mark have yet to come to pass, (which has been fodder for Christian end times novels) then Jesus was speaking of some distant future generation (for example, us), who would witness these signs and wonders. It would be odd that Jesus meant this, when he was speaking to his followers about some future generation, who would live at the barest, thousands of years from ca. AD 30. Were this the case, how quickly would his disciples lose interest? If I could prove, with 99% certainly, that the world will end in the year 4024, how many people would remain interested, or perhaps more importantly, how many would change their behavioral patterns? It is more probable, based upon scripture that Jesus was telling those around him, the end is coming soon! Was Jesus really pulling a sneaky when he said: “this generation” when he really meant “a generation 2000 years from now?”
What is most logical is that Jesus taught the end is near, and some of you will live to see it. A sober an unbiased approach to this teaching is that it was wrong. Unfortunately Jesus was in error in predicting that his associates would live to see the end of the world. For a professional defender of the faith, nothing that implies Jesus being in error can be true. It is the theologian, not atheist, who twists scripture out of context, to support his
A final defense of a theologian may be to suggest that perhaps the words are a mistranslation of sorts, of either the original unwritten Aramaic, or later Greek, or Latin, or English. Meanwhile, we can see with the evolution of English language (with Latin for spice), that the message is the same for roughly the past 1700 years:
Amen dico vobis quoniam non transiet generatio haec donec omnia ista fiant-Latin Vulgate ca 4th century
Treuli Y seie to you, that this generacioun schal not passe awei, til alle these thingis be don. -Wycliffe Bible ca.1400
Verely I saye vnto you yt this generacion shall not passe tyll all these thinges be done. — Tyndale Bible ca. 1530.
Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. -KJV.
Finally, in “American”:
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. -ASV
The message hasn't changed 2000 years, this generation isn’t going to pass ( or die if we read in Spanish) until all the signs take place. What the message means, in context, is subject to much interpretation. The text naturally flows that Jesus as referring to those around him who would witness end times. Theologians will argue that either all prophecies had come to pass, or still have yet to. Either approach has its flaws, particularly when compared to the most logical: Jesus spoke wrongly. Evidence doesn’t substantiate theological defenses: If nothing else, the faithful have not been swept up by angels, nor does a clear textual reading suggest he was speaking of some generation in the far distant future. It makes no sense that Jesus would be talking to people in AD 33 about end times that wont occur for some 2000 years. His words do not hint that he is speaking of a distant future. Rather, this premise is injected into his words by some. What makes much more sense is he was speaking to his listeners, who they, and he, believed that end times were imminent, to be seen in their lifetime.
A final defense is that scholar at ancient linguistics could attempt reverse engineering, perhaps searching for a new meaning from the [original] Greek word(s). This attack is on semantics, as a means to dilute if not change the substance of the meaning. I will freely admit I am ignorant of ancient Greek and Hebrew. Meanwhile I will confidently confess that words can be mined for different meanings. This is called twisting scripture when done by opponents; and apologetics when done by theologians. The reader ought read, and decide for himself.
Above is one example.
Elsewhere, in Mark 9:1, “And he [Jesus] said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power” kjv.
Most, if not all, theologians will assert that the resurrection is/was the kingdom of God coming into power. This kingdom is interpreted to mean being a spiritual kingdom, not of this world. This would have begged a question from the audience: if the kingdom is spiritual and unseen, what will actually be different from now? Citing resurrection as it’s meaning takes the verse out of context as already discussed. Again, Jesus was telling people the end is near. He speaks of the generation around him in the previous verse.
In summary: Jesus spoke of end times. He specifically told persons around him that they would be alive to see it happened. If this is untrue, Jesus would be a false prophet. No professional theologian would accept this opinion, any more than he would accept 1+1=2. Thus, elaborate defenses are established as to why these verses, when read in context, must be taken out of context.
Most likely the author of Mark believed in an imminent end time. From his perspective much ruin, in the aftermath of such destruction would offer evidence (from his point of view) that the end times were at hand for him as well. This notion would certainly fit, even through the earliest 2nd century. However, after 2000 years, evidence disproves that Jesus would return “quickly” (Revelation 22: 20, the second to last verse in the Bible). Something happening 2000 years from now is not quickly, in terms of human lifespan, existence. This is defended such that God’s time may be in millennia. Why then, wouldn't Jesus say “Ill be back, but not for at least 2000 years”? Who alive now, except the environmentally minded, gives any thought to 4024 AD? Christians have waited 2000 years for Christs return, and if past is prologue, will await 2000 or more years, for this promised swift return.
A careful reading of scripture suggests that Jesus made predictions that did not come true. If such is the case, it would topple him from God to mere man. If so, no longer worthy of worship. With that said, it is not my attempt to upset anyone, let alone be a troll. For this reason, I posted this only in atheism, and perhaps against by better judgement, in philosophy. Meanwhile, I am not going to search through various Christian platforms, and post on them as it would be ill received, and upsetting. While I would (maybe) get more views if I did, that isnt my purpose. Rather it is simply to examine scripture, evidence around us, both seen and seen, to ascertain what is most likely to be true given what we have. I have come to the conclusion that Jesus had said various prophecies that did not come to pass. This does not mean he was a liar or bad man. We all make predictions that turn out to be wrong: it is why we are human and not god.
I will close with mentioning that per his writings, Paul held similar beliefs, in that the end times would occur in his lifetime, and those around him. In a very similar vein, Paul too thought he was living in the end times, and addressed his listeners in such a manner. Perhaps for the best, Paul too was wrong, viewed from the perspective of 2000 years later.
Finally, I have paid little attention to the word “generation” , nor care to. One can substitute that word for group, family, nation, assembly…it doesn’t matter. The point of the message of Mark 13:30, in context, is “some of you will live to see this happen.” A professional defender of the faith would have difficulty accepting this as a valid interpretation, as doing so would indict itself as false prophecy. One would be able to do so via inserting the invisible where previously nothing was. By what yardstick do i measure this invisible kingdom? On what scale do i weigh? If an invisible, kingdom is the best proof one has to refute such a premise, I would admit to having no reasonable means to attack such an invisible kingdom, worse off than Don Quixote.
One may forever wonder:
Did Jesus make a mistake? Did the author make a mistake? Did a later transcription make a mistake? Centuries passing makes the probability of human error near certainty.
